I'm posting early this week - Saturday afternoon - in case anyone visits before Sunday!
So, here's how it works...
I have some questions from the main ideas of Sunday's sermon to stimulate thought and open discussion. So think about the questions - answer any that you want to, ask whatever you want to, and share what you will! Remember, your questions and thoughts will encourage others! Let's go! Post in the "comments" at the bottom of this post.
Sunday's sermon focused on one main phrase: to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi. Paul calls the Philippian believers saints.
* We talked about the historical setting of this letter, particularly about WHO the letter was written to. What do we know about the Philippians, particularly as it relates to their "sainthood?"
* When it comes to being a saint, what does "Religion" require of a person? (Here's a hint: we talked about the Catholic Church's requirements and about "the list.")
* What does the Gospel require of a person?
* We heard several other passages from the apostle Paul about the benefits of being in Christ. Can you list some of those benefits? (here's a couple to get you going: eternal life, justification)
* It was said that Religion leads to one of two things, Pride (because you keep your "list" better than others) or Despair (because you cannot keep the "list" though you try).
> Have you found this to be true in your own life?
* How is the Gospel different, what should the Gospel lead to?
* How did God speak to you this week?
So, here's how it works...
I have some questions from the main ideas of Sunday's sermon to stimulate thought and open discussion. So think about the questions - answer any that you want to, ask whatever you want to, and share what you will! Remember, your questions and thoughts will encourage others! Let's go! Post in the "comments" at the bottom of this post.
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Sunday's sermon focused on one main phrase: to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi. Paul calls the Philippian believers saints.
* We talked about the historical setting of this letter, particularly about WHO the letter was written to. What do we know about the Philippians, particularly as it relates to their "sainthood?"
* When it comes to being a saint, what does "Religion" require of a person? (Here's a hint: we talked about the Catholic Church's requirements and about "the list.")
* What does the Gospel require of a person?
* We heard several other passages from the apostle Paul about the benefits of being in Christ. Can you list some of those benefits? (here's a couple to get you going: eternal life, justification)
* It was said that Religion leads to one of two things, Pride (because you keep your "list" better than others) or Despair (because you cannot keep the "list" though you try).
> Have you found this to be true in your own life?
* How is the Gospel different, what should the Gospel lead to?
* How did God speak to you this week?
17 comments:
I thought I would post a question that came my way immediately after the service today - tell me what you think...
"If the Gospel is not about 'the list,' what do we do with rules? Aren't there still things that we are to do and not do?"
So, what do we do with the do's and don'ts when it comes to the Gospel?
Colosians 1:27 make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. Whose glory? Not mine, but God's glory. Ephesians 2:10 "For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."
So in order to truly give God glory I must be this... I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. Galatians 2:20 and I can rest in Him - he has accomplished the doing - I just follow Him in it. So the rules are not goal of my life, but rather the outcome of my life in Christ. Fantastic and overwhelming is the goodness of our God!
judd, you wrote, "So the rules are not goal of my life, but rather the outcome of my life in Christ." Excellent. The rules become the goal of "RELIGION" while Christ is the goal of the GOSPEL.
I think it may help to make a distinction between how it is that we become a follower of Christ and what it is that will characterize a person who has already become a follower of Christ. To say we become by following a list is religion, but the Christian benefits from the rules and commandments. Hence there are many commandments (imperatives) in the Bible, even the New Testament. A religious person will either try harder or give up trying in order to maintain their idol of their self-image. But, the response of one who embraces the Gospel will see their failurres and say, "I repent, and thank you God that my righteousness is from what Christ has done and not what I have done."
Greg, you are right - the Gospel always drives us TO Christ. As unbelievers, the Gospel drives us TO Jesus for forgiveness and salvation. As believers, our failures should still drive us TO Jesus - who loves us, forgives us, sanctifies us, justifies us, and intercedes for us.
Motivation is also a HUGE concern here.
In Religion, as believer or unbeliever we are driven to obey either to earn some status, or out of fear that we might lose something - even anger God.
In the Gospel we are compelled by our love to obey because we want to please our Joy, our Love, our Savior. We understand we cannot EARN - whih brings us to love more. There is no fear of losing, because we know that He has accomplished it all for us.
So should we judge ourselves and others by some list? 1 Corinthians 5:9-13a says "I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go outside the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolator, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler-not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges."
The sermon was primarily on the issue of "SAINTHOOD" not on whether of not there are things that we should do or not do. There are certainly those things - love God for one, love people for another, live by faith, honor your parents, respect your husband, love your wife as Christ loves the church... The Gospel doesn't throw those things out, it (HE) empowers us to live them out, gives us a desire for them, knows that we will never do it perfectly and loves and forgives us! The list (even if it is God's list) never takes the place of the Gospel, or of Jesus.
We must also understand the BIG picture of those whom Paul spoke of - it wasn''t people who made a mistake or didn't live perfectly. Paul was talking about those living in sin, and continuing in sin - even when confronted with their sin. Always Paul's goal is restoration. So if we "judge" one another it is to be in love, with humility, and with the goal of restoration.
Sunday's sermon was an awesome reminder of the grace of God! I too have experienced both extremes of religion - religious pride (which stinks!) and despair. Neither place is good. Despair lives in constant defeat, and pride is oblivious to the magnitude of sin and therefore has little true gratitude for the mercy of God. It "thinks too highly of self". Isn't the gospel freeing!!?
TESTIMONY: Several years ago, I found myself angry at God (as if He owed me something? crazy thought!) and quickly found myself in a pit of rebellion and sin. It turned ugly. There were moments in that pit where I would find myself trying to pray but then stoppping because I was "so unworthy". A sweet gentle voice captured my attention and asked a simple question, "does that mean you were worthy before?". Ughh!!!!
Ouch!! A true realization took place through that journey to show my religious pride and the truth that even my very best was "filthy" in the eyes of God!! At no moment had I ever been worthy!! Not one! Why does mankind ever think he is worthy of anything from God at anytime? Since that time, I have a brand new comprehension of the incredible mercy God has for a wretched-hearted individual as myself! Religion asks for the list and focuses on the list. The gospel requires faith and repentance - and this cannot come until we see our desperate need for a Savior. I am thankful to be a "Saint" because His righteousness has been imputed to me! No greater love has ever been given!
As far as things we should do or should not do... clearly there are things we should do but the standard is way too high to ever measure up. So we "run the race so as to win the prize", walking by the Spirit and not by the flesh. However, when we "do the things we know we should not, and don't do the things we know that we should", we rejoice in the Savior who has set our wretched selves free from the law of sin and death! Praise be to God!
Thanks Kelli.
The Gospel always drives us to Christ.
Pertaining to the do's and don't of religion... If we "do the do's and don't do the don'ts, does that give us greater standing or do we "become more prepared as the Bride of Christ" (quoted by pastor) for eternity?
I just read a few quotes from a pastor and wanted to get your thoughts...
"There will come a time when our free will to sin will be eliminated. When we die, what we have been becoming will then be who we are." He says that "whatever we spend our life growing into spiritually, that is what we'll be for the rest of eternity (not saying we won't grow in holiness and knowledge once we get to heaven, but if we are going after holiness on earth, we'll be holy for eternity. If we are going after sin on earth, we'll reap the wages of sin for eternity. Our present life dictates our eternal destination)."
Sound doctrinally sound to you?
Man this stuff is confusing. I loved the sermon, it has been making me think all week. I really need simple things to hold on to. I know that God is interested in our hearts more than anything we can do. I know that righteoussness is something we are to pursue. I think that righteousness is more simple than we make it and yet so far above our heads that we can pursue it and yet never fully understand or attain it. I think the righteousness list has nothing on it that we often put on there. I doubt there's anything on there about tatoos or music type or who we associate with. I think the things on there have more to do with trading our selfishness for selflessness.
The college ministry I was involved in at GT had a tradition whenever someone was baptized. The pastor would start reading Romans 6 ...
"What shall we say then, Shall we go on sinning so that grace may abound?" ...
Then we would all yell out "HELL NO!" It was great, fired me up every time. Then he would continue, "By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life."
I think that sums up the quandary in as simple a way as possible. LIke I said, I need simple things to hold on to. Paul talks about freedom in Christ and also of being a slave to righteousness rather than sin. He is emphatic about not letting legalism get in the way of joy and good works, yet he also speaks of all things being lawful but not all things being beneficial. So, the simple thing I have to hold onto is: Thank God I am not saved by my works and am no longer damned by my mistakes - Thank God for mercy and grace. But, should I go on sinning so that grace may abound ... HELL NO!
I've still got questions though. Sometimes I wish there was a list. A list that is COMPLETELY clear and defined. I wish I knew that if I just brushed my teeth at least once a day, did 20 pushups, and wore red socks then I would be in a right relationship with God. And then I wish that God would FORCE me to follow the list because I'm sure could even screw that up. As it is, I'm often left wondering where I stand because even though I haven't done something TERRIBLE for everyone to see, I know my heart isn't pure in many ways. That's when we compare ourselves to others. I'm not like this person, so I know I'm not where I need to be, but it could be worse, at least I'm better than that person.
Another question: when should we feel guilt? I know I let guilty feelings get in the way of prayer and spending time with God, (perhapsy having to do with the list) which is bad. But, to borrow a quote from Spanglish, when is the guilt we feel just good plain common sense.
Great words Jonathan! I really like "the simple thing I have to hold onto is: Thank God I am not saved by my works and am no longer damned by my mistakes - Thank God for mercy and grace. But, should I go on sinning so that grace may abound ... HELL NO!"
Kelli, hard to answer your questions without a real context from the other pastor. We will see this week in 3-11 that Paul was very confident that what God had started in the Philippians, He would finish - that is sanctification and glorification - a part of our incredible Gospel transformation.
Jonathan you posted again while I was posting! I am going to make an attempt at answering this - but I invite anyone else who wants to jump in, JUMP IN!
To the first part - the truth of our condition.
We often compare ourselves with others and usually according to "the list" that we have in mind. We are almost never as "guilty" as someone else - OR - we are always "more guilty" than others (pride - despair). Here is the truth - and you nailed it - we are all guilty! Even when we are at our best, we cannot truly be pure. Though others may not see it, there is darkness in our heart. Think of it this way - James 2:10 says if you have broken one of these commands you have broken them all (my paraphrase)- Jesus said that the greatest command is Love God with all you are and all you have. Who among us has done that today?
My point is simple - you cannot keep even the 1st and greatest command. That is the truth our condition - no matter who we are! Thank God for His rich mercy and great love in Christ - our sinfulness drives us to the Gospel!
And "where we satnd" is in the flooding shower of His great love and grace - IN CHRIST. This humbles us - I am no better than anyone else - but IN CHRIST, I am forgiven, cleansed, loved, and saved - the Gospel.
As to guilt - we must know and accept that we are forgiven. Being forgiven and receiving that forgiveness frees us from guilt and condemnation.
CONVICTION on the otherhand, turns us to repentance and forgiveness, and again to the Gospel and Jesus Christ. When we have repented - turned from the sin we have been convicted of, sought forgiveness (which He freely gives) then we are done - that sin is cast out as far as the East is from the West!
So again - the Gospel ALWAYS drives us to Christ!
Wow, Keith. Can you have church/worship on the internet? Because, I think I just did. Your answer really resonates in my heart right now. I should probably print this whole discussion out and read it about 10 more times to let it sink in. Our condition ... amazing stuff. Conviction - what a concept. Not matter what, we are being drawn to Christ by the Gospel.
Kelli, I can also relate to your testimony about feeling a rebelious spirit creeping in because of some sort of anger at God due to focus on myself and my own plans/desires. Once you get in that pit, it's so tough to get out because of the downward spiral of needing God and feeling like He's mad at you or doesn't/shouldn't want you anymore, and that you don't deserve Him.
I'm really looking forward to hearing how God will finish what he started in the Phillipians (me).
I love this format of discussion also. It lets you write out your thoughts/questions completely without stammering and pausing, thinking of what you're trying to say.
Jonathan, I, too, like this discussion. It causes me to continue pondering on the subject even throughout a very busy day. I find myself eager to read the other posts as well.
Guilt stinks and only makes us feel that defeated sense... "despair", as Keith said. When I find myself in a place of guilt, I remind myself of Romans 8:1 "There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", and I let it go! If God can forgive me and let it go, I can too! The text pryor to Romans 1 is what I so often feel "for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate." "For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh: for the wishing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not. For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish."...
So... clearly we see that "by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast." (Funny how God knew that we as mankind would have a tendency toward pride and boastfulness) The Law brings about a knowledge of sin (Rom 3:20), but never can accomplish justification. "For man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus... by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Gal 2:16) When we truly embrace that our acceptance by God doesn't depend on our works, we can rest and walk in works more freely.
Salvation doesn't depend on works - halelujah!
Will be interesting to discuss the promise of a finishing work in me through sanctification. What is my part and what is His? Can I join the discussion even if I don't get to come Sunday? I'll listen on line.
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